tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post5198700133494245933..comments2024-03-29T05:29:57.536-04:00Comments on The DiploMad 2.0: 9/11: From Osama to Obama, The Defeat of the West? (Part 2)DiploMadhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02316439950882822419noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-57156431340005383562015-09-17T07:49:42.423-04:002015-09-17T07:49:42.423-04:00I've read this repeatedly, and I can't mak...I've read this repeatedly, and I can't make head or tail of it. Seriously...what's with that third paragraph?<br /><br />Does it actually make sense or is it actually the gibberish it appears to be?LSWCHPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-58456584552770384972015-09-17T01:07:32.042-04:002015-09-17T01:07:32.042-04:00could've been there.. but instead of swamping ...could've been there.. but instead of swamping the country with 10x the required soldiers, 10x the required rebuild funding, and 10x the general 'giving a crap', we short-budgeted everything we did there.... and that gave Obama the opportunity to convert a success into a defeat.<br /><br />- reader #1482Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-27279595775799700062015-09-16T18:10:01.360-04:002015-09-16T18:10:01.360-04:00Whitehall, you forget that South Korea is a penins...Whitehall, you forget that South Korea is a peninsula, whereas Iraq is open to several other countries (notably Iran).<br /><br />Further, Korea has a large Christian presence (with lots of Presbyterians of an Evangelical stripe, like our own Dr. Witherspoon and a section of British opinion that preferred accommodation with the Colonies back in the 1770's) and not much of a Muslim one.Kephahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999385775493831638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-14971626562385080822015-09-16T07:58:26.780-04:002015-09-16T07:58:26.780-04:00Schwarzkopf admitted that he was "snookered&q...Schwarzkopf admitted that he was "snookered" about letting the Iraqis have helicopters--they were thinking transport, not gunships. And then the administration's riling up the Kurds and others to 'rise up" against Saddam and then hanging them out to dry was the height of folly.Merkwürdigliebehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08633547688991082358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-87872840231564947542015-09-16T00:06:43.558-04:002015-09-16T00:06:43.558-04:00I remember being absolutely furious when I heard t...I remember being absolutely furious when I heard that the Iraqi army was being disbanded, and not marched off to begin civil reconstruction work. Has the army just been marched into the desert, fed, amused, and paid them adequately, it would have been far, far better than dropping a huge number of militarily-trained unemployed pissed-off young men into a country awash with weapons.<br /><br />To be honest, my fear for Iraq's future began at the televised video of the statue of Saddam Hussein in Firdaus Square in 2003. The video started with a lone man sledge-hammering the huge base of the statue to almost no effect, then a crowd of Iraqis gathered to tie a string of ropes to the head of the statue to try to pull it down, with poor effect due to breakage of the ropes. Eventually, a US armoured recovery vehicle rolls up, a crew member climbs the crane arm to put a chain around the neck of the statue - and then puts a US flag over the face of the statue before the statue is toppled. It was the demonstration of the lack of cultural understanding of this act of placing the US flag and not the actual use of US power that was the worry; this whole incident was the Iraqi story writ small. Only when the US got militarily involved could Saddam be toppled, and until then the local individuals and groups were completely impotent. The US flag incident showed the US troops were not aware how imperialistic this made them look, and showed they didn't understand the cultural differences between Western Civilisation and Middle-East beliefs and behaviour.<br /><br />The higher-ups seemed to think that they would be welcomed like liberators in post-Nazi France and Belgium, with the fanciful notion that spontaneous Western-style democracy would break out in a domino fashion across the region. They were unable to empathise with the Middle Eastern philosophy, culture and norms of thought and kept seeing everything from a western civilisation point of view and kept assuming that everyone else had the same ideas and goals. Alas it was not to be and left a power vacuum in a country awash with unemployed militarily trained men with access to arms and angry at the infidel USA.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-28062889377081933062015-09-15T22:02:44.161-04:002015-09-15T22:02:44.161-04:00Bush the First took responsibility in a way by cla...Bush the First took responsibility in a way by claiming that recovering Kuwait was the extent of his UN mandate. To invade Iraq in turn would be outside the rules he had built his alliance upon.<br /><br />The terms of the settlement in the field, such as the use of armed Iraqi helicopters, had significant weaknesses. Maybe Colin Powell had some hand in that.Whitehallnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-78415954803605851432015-09-15T19:37:16.824-04:002015-09-15T19:37:16.824-04:00The folly was with Obama who abandoned the gains m...The folly was with Obama who abandoned the gains made by the US in stabilizing the country. I think the template for Iraq can be found in South Korea, another war-torn country that with US support and oversight, brought itself to prosperity and a reasonably civil political system.<br /><br />Iraq could have become another South Korea if Obama and the Democrat Party hadn't screwed it up.Whitehallnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-2124967750397748552015-09-15T15:25:10.117-04:002015-09-15T15:25:10.117-04:00I recall the whole "go shopping" moment....I recall the whole "go shopping" moment. It was a failure of epic proportions. Bush had the attention of the electorate and much of the world. But trying to fight a war while pretending it wouldn't cost us anything (materially or otherwise) was the high of un-seriousness and folly. <br /><br />We are still paying for it.<br /><br />I also recall in some of the work I did in the 2004-6 timeframe--there really was no "afterward" plan for Iraq. One of the dumbest things ever to come out of the post-Vietnam era is this idiotic notion of 'exit strategy' as if it were some sort of end in of itself. <br /><br />Exit strategy--you go home when you WIN.Merkwürdigliebehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08633547688991082358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-86277341840062161992015-09-15T08:16:09.630-04:002015-09-15T08:16:09.630-04:00It might be hindsight in your case; it wasn't ...It might be hindsight in your case; it wasn't in mine. I thought the Iraq adventure the height of stupidity and recklessness. I was right too.deariemenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-54593942831794677372015-09-15T08:04:16.400-04:002015-09-15T08:04:16.400-04:00The second Gulf War was the completion of unfinish...The second Gulf War was the completion of unfinished business, it should of been concluded in the first. I don't know who was responsible for that terrible decision to leave him in power, Colin Powell. perhaps someone didn't read their history.Robert of Ottawanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-72952906136901511762015-09-14T22:57:23.224-04:002015-09-14T22:57:23.224-04:00Well Dearieme - in a way I can see me totally agre...Well Dearieme - in a way I can see me totally agreeing with you Saddam wasn't the fellow we should've set our resources against - better choice probably woulda been Mohammed Bouazizi.<br /><br />But then there's that 20/20 hindsight again.<br /><br />***Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-3044446461627657762015-09-14T21:33:20.064-04:002015-09-14T21:33:20.064-04:00I agree that the "Islam is a religion of peac...I agree that the "Islam is a religion of peace" meme was totally foolish. I agree that Soddy Barbaria got off too easily, especially when that sh***y princeling wanted Mayor Giuliani to blame the JOOOOOOOOOZ. That should've raised lots of red flags about where the land of sacred sand stands. <br /><br />I even agree that Sodom Insane was a menace--although the time to bring him down was during the First Gulf War.<br /><br />However, I agree that we should never have made the war on terror into a war on Islam per se (even if I recognize SERIOUS problems in Islamic theology). Also, I believe that successive administrations have reacted stupidly to the ferment in the Islamic world ever since 1979.<br /><br />Islam is a wide and diverse phenom--o, you know the mantra. But not everyone from Mauretania to Mindanao, the Kama to the Comoros, and Northern Nigeria to Ningxia thinks the same. I'm sure that there are plenty of Muslims who grumbled, "Who says Osama Bin Ladin is Caliph? Who is he to declare Jihad against people who are at peace with us?" And I'm also sure that our anointed talking heads have no business speaking for such people. But be assured that I say this as a pre-modern Christian who holds no candle for Islam at all--although I would consider it a disgrace to have to remonstrate with some Muslim-majority country because it won't recognize SSM.<br /><br />Frankly, I think we went into mindless panic mode when Khomeini did his end run around the odds-on favorites in the Tudeh when the Shah fell. We screamed about "fundamentalism" as if there were a secret tunnel connecting Lynchburg, VA to Qom, Iran, where every Thanksgiving the combined faculties of Liberty U and Qom met to dine on live-stewed liberated lesbians while the cackling shade of Meir Kahane intoned a B'rokhes. Seriously, as a practicing Christian with Jewish ancestors and Daoist kin, what I saw in our Leftist MSM and even gummint circles after 1979 made me think of some Renaissance-era European community thinking there were witches flying through the air.<br /><br />What I saw when being trained on Southeast Asia before going to Bangkok (including Islamist ferment in the Island countries) and read from INR while in China convinced me that the best brains in Washington were groping and flailing about trying to make sense of what was going on in the Dar-ul-Islam. I heard that Monsoon-region Sufis were wonderful, softy-softy mystics because they diallogued with Quakers (who are nothing but fire-breathing Ranters and Levellers who had unfortunate run-ins with Cromwell's Ironsides)--as if Sufi-inspired rebels hadn't given our boys a run for their money back in 1902 in Mindanao (and other empires similar issues elsewhere). I was assured there was no "fundamentalism" in Chinese Islam because China's Muslims were Sunni rather than Shi'ah, even while our reporting from the field was mentioning a low-level guerrilla war in Sharki Turkistan (colonial name: Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region) and riots over associations of Muslims and pigs among the Hui. I mean, at the time, the Chinese Communist regime was so scared of ANY religious ferment that they sweated bullets when some of their old "foreign friends" of Jewish origin started donning kippehs and attending seders in Old Age. From what I see now, I don't think anything's changed since the '90's and we're still badly served by the chattering classes.<br /><br />Our diplomats and policymakers ought to check their prejudices against pre-19th century traditions of discourse; recognize that there are Muslims and Muslims; and choose our fights very carefully; and for the love of Heaven (speaking as one who believes that G_d delivered the Torah to Moses and all Israel on Sinai) PLEEEEEEZE refrain from pretending that the aptly named Foggy Bottom knows Islam better than the 'Ulema at Al-Azhar and Qom!<br /><br />BTW Dip, l'shanah tovah!Kephahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999385775493831638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-89274015334514911262015-09-14T18:18:24.628-04:002015-09-14T18:18:24.628-04:00Diplomad's gonna surely be surprised at *** (t...Diplomad's gonna surely be surprised at *** (there are a few Diplomads of course who, though I never address by name [even tho it's on the sidebar] Whitewall, James (recall we ... had a conversation concerning Israel possibly doing *something with/to/against Iran back in 10-13 [ heck at that time even Kepha seemed to get along with my opinions ... anyway I only "sign these days *** " simply because I'm so chickenshit - Dearieme notwithstanding.<br />____<br /><br /><strong>However</strong> our host Diplomad makes about the most pertinent point us Military (and whatever category Dearieme you should be catalogued into) Types right here September 14, 2015 at 3:07 PM.<br /><br />Money Sentence:<br /><br /><i>"I think, however, when you're running a foreign policy you deal with the problems you can deal with."</i><br /><br />Thank the Powers that Be/Were all I had to do was blow shit to smithereens. <br /><br />Yes I find myself frequently disagreeing with Diplomad but the job-descriptions I am constantly aware were different.<br /><br />I never wanted to say on an actual blog what I probably have said in emails - but given some of what has been asserted earlier I'm pretty much, outta options. <br /><br />The Military shit is ... relatively speaking ... kinda easy. The Voter shit well, it kinda depends. <br /><br />But what Diplomad says in his second period at the aforementioned timestamp I certainly give all credit to.<br /><br />***Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-43527387131937343122015-09-14T17:27:17.817-04:002015-09-14T17:27:17.817-04:00"when you're running a foreign policy you..."when you're running a foreign policy you deal with the problems you can deal with": but why was Saddam seen as the USA's problem at all? And why drag down a man (a murderous thug, admittedly) who might have been a useful constraint on Iran? The example of the USSR is surely useful: alliance with the USSR was accepted as a way of bringing down Hitler. deariemenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-87142911894101701302015-09-14T17:22:57.374-04:002015-09-14T17:22:57.374-04:00"people killed by the various Iraqi gangs in ..."people killed by the various Iraqi gangs in the ensuing Iraqi civil war": that's a war unleashed by W's folly, though, isn't it? <br /><br />Look at the state of the bloody place: if that's your idea of success, God save the USA.deariemenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-45245471678946655022015-09-14T15:10:26.156-04:002015-09-14T15:10:26.156-04:00I should have mentioned the Garner vs. Bremer deba...I should have mentioned the Garner vs. Bremer debate. State, for once, had a much better plan for dealing with post-inaviosn Iraq than did DOD. Powell, however, was not a very good bureaucrat and Rumsfeld out maneuvered him easily, backing Bremer. DOD never really had a plan.DiploMadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02316439950882822419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-76124124782175266332015-09-14T15:07:28.957-04:002015-09-14T15:07:28.957-04:00All good points. I think, however, when you're...All good points. I think, however, when you're running a foreign policy you deal with the problems you can deal with. Knocking off the Iranian regime would have been great but a monumental task. You deal with one enemy at a time. Should we have gone to war against USSR during WWII? Probably not. DiploMadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02316439950882822419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-16149770232220228062015-09-14T14:02:43.129-04:002015-09-14T14:02:43.129-04:00i beg to differ. saddam was never behind 9/11. h...i beg to differ. saddam was never behind 9/11. he was simply a target of opportunity. jthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06813674789003385660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-69848191468135182462015-09-14T12:59:44.547-04:002015-09-14T12:59:44.547-04:00Normally I am in agreement with you but I do not a...Normally I am in agreement with you but I do not agree with your assessment of the necessity of removing Saddam. Was he a monster" Undoubtedly. Was he a destabilizing influence? To a degree but if we wanted to remove the destabilizing influences in the ME we may have as well have started with Iran, Assad, (as obama seems to be doing) the Saudis, (who have funded to growth of fundamentalist islam around the world) ... and for good measure let's throw in the "palestinian" leadership. Saddam was not, by any stretch of the imagination, at the time of 9/11, a clear and present danger to the US or anyone else ,save his own people. As for his WMD's and his nuclear attempts, they were far from any danger to us. Legally he had used WMD's but they were not the WMD's the general pubic fears, nuclear weapons.pacmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05510002691207482901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-38618474748719717392015-09-14T12:59:38.377-04:002015-09-14T12:59:38.377-04:00Normally I am in agreement with you but I do not a...Normally I am in agreement with you but I do not agree with your assessment of the necessity of removing Saddam. Was he a monster" Undoubtedly. Was he a destabilizing influence? To a degree but if we wanted to remove the destabilizing influences in the ME we may have as well have started with Iran, Assad, (as obama seems to be doing) the Saudis, (who have funded to growth of fundamentalist islam around the world) ... and for good measure let's throw in the "palestinian" leadership. Saddam was not, by any stretch of the imagination, at the time of 9/11, a clear and present danger to the US or anyone else ,save his own people. As for his WMD's and his nuclear attempts, they were far from any danger to us. Legally he had used WMD's but they were not the WMD's the general pubic fears, nuclear weapons.pacmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05510002691207482901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-24493516778464526792015-09-14T12:55:31.477-04:002015-09-14T12:55:31.477-04:00One of my favorite lefty quotes: "You can'...One of my favorite lefty quotes: "You can't impose democracy at the end of the barrel of a gun."<br />Many will refer to the US rebellion against England as supposed 'evidence' that a violent overthrow must be homegrown.<br />They've gotten their wishes:<br />Syria<br /><br />- reader #1482Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-27017910259629016242015-09-14T10:24:25.528-04:002015-09-14T10:24:25.528-04:00a propagandist's assertion that has massively ...a propagandist's assertion that has massively failed to subvert a religion.... imoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-81095019701218945762015-09-14T10:22:24.835-04:002015-09-14T10:22:24.835-04:00easy to say this 'now'... if there'd b...easy to say this 'now'... if there'd been another attack on US soil and Saddam hadn't been removed, everybody and their mother would've blamed Bush for leaving the problem to fester. It's hard to recall what the state was prior to invasion... containment.. no-fly zones... such a huge distraction.<br /><br />- reader #1482Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-18037777821386804092015-09-14T09:49:40.766-04:002015-09-14T09:49:40.766-04:00Oh Dearieme, not "hundreds of thousands of pe...Oh Dearieme, not "hundreds of thousands of people." Iraq Body Count.org, last time I checked, put the total death toll in Iraq at right around one hundred thousand, which included people killed by the various Iraqi gangs in the ensuing Iraqi civil war. The Iraqi Ministry of Health put the number quite a bit lower. When we consider that Saddam killed about a hundred thousand in the years before we invaded, it's entirely conceivable that the number of lives saved was greater than those killed, by all elements.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10352174311146177708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1400985529434569506.post-33655967837208696202015-09-14T07:42:54.402-04:002015-09-14T07:42:54.402-04:00If you don't mind Diplomad Sir?
***
Let us D...If you don't mind Diplomad Sir?<br /><br />***<br /><br />Let us Dearieme review exactly how Diplomad put it?<br /><br />"Let me turn for a moment to Iraq. Was the take-down of Saddam justified? I thought so at the time and continue to think that Saddam was a dangerous monster who had in the past used WMD, and had sought a nuclear capability (remember Project Babylon and Gerald Bull?) Nearly ALL the intel from many intel services indicated that Saddam had not given up his nuclear ambitions. Saddam had links to AQ and was a financial enabler of Palestinian terrorism. He was a destabilizing force in the region. He had to go. ... "<br />___<br /><br />Recall Dearieme at the end of 41's tenure - indeed even at the very end of the first ending of kicking Saddam's ass out of Kuwait the hue and cry "Why not do it all the way?"<br /><br />The simplistic answer - but hindsight being 20/20 I think maybe even you Dearieme would agree[?] was HW in his formative years was (and I go with my own Dad's being a Navy WWII vet ... and some more) but anyway, it wasn't just GW and his Neo-Cons wot dunnit - "Regime Change in Iraq" was first enunciated by <strong>The Clinton Administration.</strong> You do recall when the "No-Fly-Zone over Iraq" really really got teeth? (Not just "warning bursts" but actual shoot-downs? <br /><br />And really Dearieme look at <i>exactly and precisely</i> how Diplomad put it, "Was the take-down of Saddam justified? I thought so at the time ..." <br /><br />Well truth be told a whole lotta people (even for Chrissakes Hillary who voted 'Aye' to do just that) thought it "a splendid idea" and actually me too except for my above stated reasons [2 front war, losing a *nominally cooperative ally* etc ... plus the Israelis quietly advising us to "patience look at the long-term." Heck the Israelis even went so far as to what might go south in Syria - admittedly not even the vaunted Mossad foresaw a fruit-vendor in Tunisia lighting both himself off and with his self-immolation the so-called Arab Spring] but suffice to reiterate Diplomad you should carefully note did not type <br /><br />'Was the take-down of Saddam justified? Yes indeedy do' rather Diplomad typed "Was the take-down of Saddam justified? I thought so at the time ..."<br /><br />You very very likely have no clue Dearieme but, coming from a former dot gov guy (and especially State) that is a pretty <strong>Trigger Warning!</strong> goddam ballsy thing to put on a blog that's got the author's actual name featured prominently on the site.<br /><br />So you Dearieme some few words later saying, "Your own justification ..." makes it appear to me you either did not pay the self-acknowledged former dot gov guy his well-earned attention or worse, you're purposefully slandering.<br /><br />"I am particularly dismayed by ..." et cetera ... pisses me off too.<br /><br />***Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com