This will be a quick one.
I just want to weigh in a bit on the issue of Senator John McCain and the criticism of his war record by Donald Trump.
I voted for McCain in 2008. I saw him as much preferable to the destructive, anti-American, anti-West calamity who now holds the presidency.
He, of course, ran a horrid campaign in which he pulled his punches, refused to engage head-on with Obama, sabotaged his own running mate, Governor Palin, and chased after, as I have written before, what Tom Bethell called that "strange new respect." He subsequently has taken positions especially on foreign affairs that made little to no sense, again, I believe, as he sought that "respect" from the progressive media. McCain who loudly had proclaimed himself a "maverick" in the GOP, quickly showed himself as a critic of the GOP base as he searched, again, for that "strange new respect." He seemed genuinely to think that because the NY Times and the Washington Post, as well as the legacy broadcast news shows, praised and praise his "courage" in defying conservatives, and saying some very harsh and unfair things about folks such as Senator Ted Cruz, that they would back him against a true-blue progressive icon such as Obama. Wrong. Very wrong. He just doesn't learn that bowing to progressivism only gets you a sore backside.
All that said, Trump's comments on McCain's war record were wrong. Trump, as noted before, is loud, brash, and has the ability, occasionally and opportunistically, to tap into issues of great concern, such as illegal immigration and Islamic terrorism.
Trump, of course, said, referring to McCain, “He’s not a war hero. He’s a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.” McCain might be many things we conservatives do not like, but he put his life on the line in the skies over Vietnam, and suffered over five years of abuse and torture at the hands of the North Vietnamese, refusing early release, and staying with his fellow prisoners.
Those of us who have never gone through the sort of torment and sacrifice endured by McCain, and others at the Hanoi Hilton, have no right to mock, degrade, belittle or otherwise ridicule those who did endure that pain and terror. We can disagree with their views, but we should respect them as heroes.
Okay. I came back. Couldn't stay away.
ReplyDeleteI like Republican candidates who aren't contributors to the Clintons. Etc. They write themselves. Get a hashtag.
You like Establishment Republicans who contribute nothing financially to Dems but whom we elect and then watch kneel down before the Dem party and its complicit media, allowing Obama and the Dems to tear apart the country while massively growing government.
DeleteSay what you want about Trump, he has never been a part of this failure theatre.
You voted for McCain, you voted for Romney, and in 2016 you'll be voting for Jeb!, and you think the rest of us should do the same, and like it!
Do I indeed?
DeleteYou seem to think you know my mind better than I do.
How very like a Democrat.
Yes, because we all know that one of the key issues that get Dems worked up is the failure of the Republican establishment !
DeleteWait just a damn minute. You have the effrontery to claim that the Republican establishment you *think* I support is *secretly* complicit with the Democrats while your own champion is *overtly* complicit with them?
DeleteOf course you do. Trumpery is just effrontery; nor he nor you have anything else. I'm done with you.
Jumpin' for Jed! No wonder they chased you out of here....
DeleteTrump was looking and sounding good for the briefest of moments; but we all knew it wouldn't last, because he would go too far on some issue. What I really didn't see coming was that the shot to his own foot would be by attacking the unquestionable service of a man like McCain. It was so stupid; and where could it possibly get him, other than into a fierce conflict about something that just isn't relevant.
ReplyDeleteI fear that this implosion will wash away the very real issues that Trump had the courage to raise, and needed to be part of this campaign; Trump has given the leftoid media the perfect platform to attack anything he has said as the bile of the unbalanced. Such a shame really.
Trump "was looking and sounding good" like a stopped clock does.
DeleteHe's intermittently bold on immigration--good in itself--but only because, unlike the rest of the GOP field, he isn't thinking about winning Hispanics in the general election.
He's Perot in a bad wig. But without the patriotism.
I think that is a tad harsh; no one said he was the GOP saviour, but that doesn't mean he was wrong about the issues he raised.
DeleteBrett, I'll meet you half-way. Half-a-tad harsh.
DeleteI'll add this: outrage at the VA failure is 'way overdue.
DeleteI gather he nailed that pretty well, although I haven't heard or read the speech myself.
(This is me, being needlessly conciliatory. I trust I am among friends.)
I like Senators who don't call their constituents crazies , and sneer at them for asking that the goddamned law of the land be observed. I dont like drooling semi-senile halfwits who get all asshurt when someone with little to no tact kicks them in the teeth and will give them another one in the balls. Trump is no genius, that isn't exactly rocketry. But lets not play lets pretend Mac baby is something to be enshrined
ReplyDeleteNobody here is asking you to worship McCain as a politician. I don't care for his politics, or his sneers.
DeleteBut if you don't respect him as a hero, and a better man qua man than either of us or ten of Trump, you've got a screw loose.
I've read comments by some who have viewed the video and they claim that Trump was misquoted or that the written words don't reflect what he was trying to say.
ReplyDeleteI will reserve judgment until I review the video myself and encourage others to do the same.
Even the quoted words make one point about McCain - his heroism didn't result in victory. General Patton would see that distinction The men at the Alamo would not be well-remembered in the Province of Texas of Mexico.
His performance in 2008 is the case in point - he fought like a loser and he lost.
Hey, there, Hall.
Delete(1) As both pilot and prisoner, McCain appears to have done everything in his power, in the call of duty and beyond, to secure victory.
(2) America's failure to secure victory in Vietnam was, I think it fair to say, not substantially due to pilot error, if any, in McCain's having been shot down.
(3) Why are we even talking about this? What did Trump ever do to secure an American victory in any war? Where was *his* precious hide?
I like war heroes who actually, you know, went to war. And were heroes.
BTW, Hall--you too, Anonymous and KenH--what did *you* do in the war?
You are correct to be sceptical, what was actually said is "perhaps he was a war hero".
Deletehttp://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/07/18/trump-mccain-a-war-hero-because-he-was-captured-i-like-people-who-werent/
I love what Trump is doing to the RINO,s think he would make a great vice-president taking flak (you don't draw enemy fire unless you are over target) while Scott Walker was dismantling half the bureaucracy.
So I've seen the video (thanks Mr C) and what Trump said was largely correct and undeserving of the disdain heaped on him for it. The press, the Democrats, and the RINOs have done Mr. Trump a disservice. We can expect many more manufactured scandals like this,
DeleteAs to McCain, his military exploits were per his duty. He got a free education in Annapolis and served honorably. He conducted himself during in the prison camps with distinction.
But he has been trading on those years all through his political career where he has not served his country as well. Personally, I was rejected by my draft board as too stupid in 1968.
Like Trump said, Americans want and deserve results.
This from Sydney Schanberg may smudge your preconceptions about McCain. http://goo.gl/RSfqrE
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Schanberg
Hello again, Mr. Adian. Mr. Feree. hello, we haven't met.
DeleteIt is undisputed that McCain turned down privileged repatriation, unlike other prisoners of war. That seems pretty heroic to me; it may have helped protect his fellow prisoners at a tremendous cost to him in torture. That's above and beyond, not just "per his duty."
Again, remind me, what did Trump do in the war?
(Or, since you keyboard heroes are evaluating heroism: what did *you* do in the war?)
Your pal,
a6z
a6z, search my contribution for a comment on evaluating heroism, you won't find it.
DeletePerhaps you ascribe to similar tactics used by the wimmin,"if you are not female you cannot comment" In your case "since you keyboard heroes are evaluating heroism: what did *you* do in the war?" It would seem that despite your apparent service to your country you omitted to understand some of the concepts that your country is founded upon. In this case the first amendment. You may know it as free speech.
As for Trumps military contribution, that is a matter of fact that voters (I am not one) will take into account. On the balance I would say that Trump has done far less damage to your country than McCain but both are far from imperfect.
Mr. Adian, I will withdraw the attribution to you of "evaluating heroism."
DeleteYou should know that the First Amendment is not implicated when I criticize another's opinion.
"Free speech" is a broader concept than the First Amendment. It is implicated, perhaps, when the (private) media and/or academia is one-sided (as, of course, it is).
However, it has absolutely no application to one person's criticism of another's ideas. None. Everybody has a right to think, say, and write anything.
Of course, there are things I would not write in this forum, and things you should not. But freedom of speech doesn't come into it.
My dear fellow, you must attend to your civic education. No wonder you are susceptible to this Trump tartuffery.
a6z said "Everybody has a right to think, say, and write anything" which is exactly my point. This conversation is NOT the exclusive domain of veterans as you seem to believe.
DeleteTrump is another matter, like Diplomad I am not a huge fan, though I am amused at his ability to expose RINO's and dimicrats..
Since you ask, C.--putting a charitable construction on it--this conversation is presumably whatever Diplomad thinks appropriate: it's his site.
DeleteEvaluating heroism, a la Trump, is usually best left to those who have been there. Those who haven't do, indeed, have a right to speak; but they are correctly laughed at.
Dhimmicrat is conventionally spelled with an h after the D. Just thought you would want to know.
And Trump is himself king of the RINOs. Which is where we came in, with the open complicity with the Clinton gang.
But yes, he does put the wind up the *other* RINOs. Sometimes usefully, perhaps; but with this remark he has passed his expiration date.
To be specific: he also offends plenty of Republicans in heart and soul. And independents. And in-betweens.
Deletea6z we have to agree to disagree about who gets to comment on what. In the end as you point out it is a futile argument as our genial host allows a free-wheeling discussion, for the benefit of all.
Delete"he also offends plenty of Republicans in heart and soul"......Change republicans to RINO's and we have agreement. Which many believe is necessary, and would explain the current polls.
'Adian, change Republicans to RINOs and you have reversed the meaning of my sentence. We cannot do business along those lines.
DeleteI don't see that we have a disagreement about who gets to comment on what. We have a disagreement on who gets to comment on what without being laughed at. The latter is something else entirely.
Bon mot
ReplyDeleteEchoing Whitehall above (7/21 2:55 AM) Adding though I am one of those who has seen the entire "talk" and couldn't actually understand what the fuss was about until I let the media explain it to me.
ReplyDeleteI'd just offer also that this early in the game of Forever Campaign this is just one of the many things that'll be presented to us as Serious in Silly Season.
One last thing; I noted on Larry Sabato's Crystal Ball, which one sentence in the post I'll be pasting is one sentence I think makes obvious what the "Death Knell" is for President The Donald prospects - surprised me too actually - I figured the regional support to be the opposite:
"While the regional differences are not enormous, Trump does worst in the South and best in the Northeast."
If it's accurate Trump gets his "best" in the Northeast .. well .. it ain't rocket science to see how that's gonna turn out inevitably anyway.
http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/is-donald-trump-the-new-ross-perot-or-the-next-pat-buchanan/
***
You can't very well blame McCain for losing the Vietnam War but he has taken a lot of weak and destructive positions on issues like illegal immigration. At one time, his advisor on that topic was a Mexican citizen.
ReplyDeleteYes, I also like businessmen who don't declare bankruptcies--and make their money at something a little more respectable than casinos; or driving using government cronies and eminent domain to drive widows from their homes ...
ReplyDeleteFormer CBS reporter Sheryl Attkisson has an article saying the quotes attributed to trump are a lie.
ReplyDeleteMy husband, a Vietnam vet, former Heli pilot, and Master Aviator, said the following.....'We do not have a single hero from any war since Vietnam. POWS do not count as heroes, they are POWS, and in a separate category. He said the media never ALLOWED our country to make anyone a "War hero" because they went on to destroy them.
ReplyDeleteAs for me, I find Trump brash and unacceptable. On the other hand that may be what it takes to win this election, if there is one in 2016. But, I will tell you one thing.....no man can save this nation. Only God can.
B. Gunn
E. Texas Rancher
Chaplain
I think your husband is absolutely right about the media not allowing anyone to be portrayed as a hero.
DeleteIt also appears to me that he is right that there is no heroism merely in being a POW. It takes something extra. Whether McCain's behavior as a POW was heroic or just foolhardy is something that I'm in no position to judge. But I'm reading a lot that suggests that his fellow prisoners think it was the latter.
The media "allowed" Jessica whatshername to be depicted as a hero for a brief period until it became obvious that the story was concocted. The public is hungry for heroes and that cannot be permitted. Pat Tillman was one briefly and then the military was accused of covering up the "friendly fire" nature of his death. Friendly fire has been a hazard of combat since gunpowder was invented.
DeleteThanks Boxty at 9:17
ReplyDeleteAtkisson up on Diplomad's sidebar post dated the 18th;
Moneyquote:
"Trump actually said the opposite of what the Post lead sentence and video caption claim. The Post might have been able to get away stating that Trump “implied” McCain was not a war hero because McCain was captured, but even that would have been a subjective interpretation since Trump had actually stated the opposite."
https://sharylattkisson.com/fact-check-the-washington-post-on-donald-trump-and-john-mccain/
***
(As I said above, didn't know what the fuss was til I let the media explain it to me.)
I voted for McCain; well actually I was voting for Sarah Palin. She was honorable; McCain was not. Still is not. Abandoned his wife, his children, for a rich floozy.
ReplyDeleteWhen I look at Trump, I see a family man with a great family, who all love and support The Donald. What do you see when you look at McCain?
I'm a vet too; and from that perspective I see McCain as a lying, dishonorable weasel who has done nothing but feather his own bed; he disgraces the Senate.
My beloved country is dead. For the first time ever I flew no flag on July 4; it seemed disrespectful, considering that what that flag stands for no longer exists.
Fuck McCain and the horse he rode in on; he's part of what killed the United States of America. May he rot in hell.
I am all out for The Donald. I don't expect for him to win; the traitors are too thick on the ground, all media is subversive, all roads lead to Jeb vs Hitlery, whichever way you vote doesn't matter.
I endorse what Anonymous at the top of the thread said: "You voted for McCain, you voted for Romney, and in 2016 you'll be voting for Jeb!, and you think the rest of us should do the same, and like it!" Failure theatre indeed.
"a family man with a great family"
DeleteWhich one ? I can think of about five.
Trump's ill-advised comments demonstrate why he would make a terrible president: afterwards, he refused to recognize what he had said, when an appropriate admission that he had gone a bit over the top would have done him well.
ReplyDeleteAs president, he'll be far too rigid.
That's not what we need. We have one like that already.
Graham
The term "hero" has been overused to the point that it is almost as meaningless in public discourse as "racist". John McCain was not a hero because he endured being a POW, or because he fought bravely in the air. That is expected behavior for all of our brave men and women in the armed forces.
ReplyDeleteStaying with his comrades when offered release was "above and beyond", in my opinion. For that, I will call him hero.
I think the word you were looking for was loyal, nothing much more, i have not heard any other Hanoi Hilton detainees called heroes.
DeleteUpon being offered release (I know nothing of the circumstances, so please enlighten me if there were good reasons for his decision) and thus an opportunity to return to the fight, he declined? Don't captured soldiers have a positive duty to escape imprisonment if possible? Did his fellow soldiers benefit so much from his presence that remaining with them was more useful to the war effort than leaving and then killing lots of enemy soldiers?
DeleteThese are honest questions. I've never served, and don't know the details surrounding McCain's service history.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteHe was offered release because he was an high-ranking admiral's son. It would have been very bad for the morale of the other prisoners. From John McCain's Wiki page.
Delete"In mid-1968, John S. McCain Jr. was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater, and the North Vietnamese offered McCain early release[44] because they wanted to appear merciful for propaganda purposes,[45] and also to show other POWs that elite prisoners were willing to be treated preferentially.[44] McCain turned down the offer; he would only accept repatriation if every man taken in before him was released as well. Such early release was prohibited by the POW's interpretation of the military Code of Conduct"
Perhaps "hero" is still a bit strong just because he stayed but the point I was trying the make is that calling everyone a hero dilutes the term.
Jason,
DeleteI'm not sure if he had been tortured beyond the capacity for flying by the time he was offered early release or not.
The general intent of how they handled prisoners was propaganda. They gave special treatment and early release to ones that they thought would say what they wanted said.
One of the POWs who is quietly considered a hero had spent captivity pretending to be stupid and sympathetic. He had secretly memorized a list of people who had been taken alive, that they were pretending not to have. (They had a freer hand to torture and mistreat the ones that they hadn't admitted having.)
McCain had connections, so they would have tried harder to turn or break him. If they had convinced him to go back while he knew others were being kept and mistreated, they would have owned him forever.
It is duty to escape and resist the unlawful coercion of captors. Betraying your cause and comrades while submitting to coercion is exactly the opposite.
Anti-Democrat
Thank you all for your replies, you've helped clarify the situation for me.
DeleteWell, from loyal reader #17, I can't help but see Trump as a self-obsessed, egotistical walking mouth who might even be a less effective leader than the one we have now. I don't think he would spend every waking moment plotting ways to destroy the Republic, so there's that - but he is not a leader of a superpower.
ReplyDeleteI can't help but harbor suspicion that he's really there to undermine the 2016 Republican chances. I don't trust his motives and even if he's sincere, he's like a baseball bat wielded by a blindfolded man. Once in a while he might hit the ball in the right direction but the rest of the time, he's a huge liability for the team. His out-of-control bombast sets up a classic media opportunity to dismiss all causes he supports by association - something that the liberal media already exploits. That's frankly why I wonder if he's quietly backed by the Democrats to aid their cause. It would be a win-win for them - unelectable loose cannon undermines the enemy (the GOP) with his express message, and undermines the important causes of the conservative electorate by association. The fact that he may or may not have actually said what is implied by the McCain kerfuffle is immaterial - we've seen his big mouth in action and have no doubt he might have.
We need someone with backbone and confidence to tell the Dems to go straight to hell, don't get me wrong - but I don't think Trump is the guy we should put our trust in.
That's the most cogent post about Trump I've ever read.
DeleteAs Donald Rumsfeld pointed out, sometimes you go to war with the army you have, not with the army you want.
DeleteYes, Trump is a bit sketchy but until someone more effective and more trustworthy steps up and starts swinging, Trump's our leader.
I've started wondering if the Clintons could have been behind both Trump and Perot. It'd be in the character of the Clintons to gimmick things in that way, I just do not have any evidence that this is the case.
DeleteAnti-Democrat
This business brings back unhappy memories of the 2008 election.
ReplyDeleteI briefly watched some of the McCain-Obama debates. McCain brought up facts, figures, and arguments; Obama seemed to say nothing but "hope...change....hope...change..." as if he was some kind of wind-up toy. Yet somehow, the MSM oooohed and aaaaaahed over what a brilliant character the O was.
And then I saw how they treated Sarah Palin over her comments about Russia's proximity to Alaska. My God, how I was ashamed of my faux-siphticated Northeast Corridor portion of the country!
Sure, McCain was a weak candidate. But he did not deserve the treatment The Donald gave him.
typical local media BS example: 4th of july... video of O & fam sitting the the grandstands watching a parade... cut to comment about McCain.. as video plays of him getting out of a helicopter in a suit, camera low to the ground shooting upwards, as he reaches down and adjusts his pants... What's amazing is that nobody was outraged.
Delete- reader #1482
The race is looking increasingly depressing. Then again, too much of public life looks depressing right now.
ReplyDeleteMcCain did his duty. Having a father, and grandfather, who were both Admirals wasn't a detriment when he applied to the Naval Academy. Anyone else would have been washed out after the stunts he pulled.
ReplyDeleteBut he served, was captured, spent five years in captivity and came home. The day he disembarked that plane and put foot on the tarmac was the last day that McCain showed any honor and is the last day anyone should have any respect for him.
His service is not a get-out-of-jail card for what he has done since. Responses here have called Trump "a self-obsessed, egotistical walking mouth." Exactly what is John McCain now? He insults other Republicans and even every-day Americans. He is willing to jump the aisle to further his reputation as a "maverick." Well, any Texas rancher worth his salt will tell you that mavericks are not a good thing, and if you have one in your herd, you put them down to preserve the herd.
You want to know if John McCain cares about vets? Ask yourself this question: why did he not talk to John Kerry for years over Kerry's false testimony about Vietnam, but then when they took a joint trip to Vietnam to search for remaining POWs, they became best buds and decided there were no POWs left alive in Vietnam when the intel, especially the HUMINT said differently?
Want to know about John McCain? Ask the family of Lt. Donald Matocha about John McCain who refused to help them.
Who stepped in to help the Matocha family? Congressman Sam Johnson (R-Tx) who doesn't play on his 7 years at the Hanoi Hilton and who is never seen with McCain, for any purpose.
John McCain insults Americans every day. If Trump insults him a couple of times, well, payback is a (you know what), isn't it? How's it feel to be insulted, Senator McCain?
Zane
McCain is worse than “fundamentally flawed” in the political sense. There has always been something very wrong with his character, which is one of extreme “me-first-and-only” self-entitlement. He was wrongfully admitted to the Naval Academy with bad grades ahead of more qualified applicants because his daddy and granddaddy were admirals. Rules that apply to ordinary people don’t apply to him. He thumbed his nose at Annapolis because he couldn’t be kicked out or flunked out, because he was JOHN MCCAIN, son and grandson of ADMIRALS. He ignored orders and crashed planes, because he couldn’t be disciplined as the son and grandson of admirals. He ditched the wife who stood by him, when he wanted a rich blonde chick young enough to be his daughter, who could finance his political ambition.
ReplyDeleteHe was caught taking bribes to his wife from the Keating 5, so tried to cover his tracks by imposing the McCain-Feingold nonsense on everyone else (laws only apply to everyone else, not to JOHN MCCAIN). He entertained a blonde lobbyist in ways that worried his staff, and improperly pressured the FCC for her in exchange for …., because he is JOHN MCCAIN!!!!!!. He yelled obscenities at other senators who questioned ramming his McCain-Kennedy amnesty through the Senate in the dead of night without debate, and screamed he knew more about it than anyone else - because he is JOHN MCCAIN, a legend in his own mind !!!!!! He has had secret no press allowed meetings to praise Mexico as our dearest friend and closest neighbor, calling enforcement of the laws “Rhetoric".
As president, McCain, like the man he helped elect. Barack Obama, would have tried to rule by fiat and would make Hugo Chavez look like George Washington. Like the Alice in Wonderland Queen of Hearts, if any GOP congresscritter disagreed with him “OFF WITH HER HEAD- I’m JOHN MCCAIN, KING OF THE UNIVERSE!!!” There has always been something consistently very wrong with McCain’s character. Through it all, this lying unreliable self-aggrandizing megalomaniac poses as a “straight talker", and is so sick, he probably believes it himself, because he is JOHN MCCAIN !!!!!!!!!!!!, son and grandson of ADMIRALS.
I will say in McCain's defense that if he had won in 2008, there would be no ISIS and there would be peace in Iraq.
DeleteOn that Whitehall - unlike above - I must disagree.
DeleteVociferously.
Now I'm prepared to really get into this if you are but as this being Diplomad's site I'd prefer to avoid that.
Question - Is there any doubt AQI morphed into what today we call ISIL or Daesh? (If you're familiar with West Point's CTC Harmony Project you might Google up "The Sinjar Files" published 2007 - where in the very first sentence of the Introduction [pg 5 as I recall] you'll find one and only one name specifically one Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi).
One of his Lieutenants pictured in the link: standing right next to ... guess who.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2014/09/18/alleged-isis-photo-controversy-engulfs-sen-john-mccain/
______________
Then there's McCain's Senate Floor Speech back when even Obama was showing little enthusiasm, McCain egged on by first France's Hollande then Cameron "made the case" We Need to Support The Brave Freedom Fighters of Libya - who turned out to be Ansar al-Sharia.
And we know how that went.
Arkie
I refused to vote for McCain in 2008 (if the GOP nominates people like that...). Fortunately, I had a "none of these" option available to me. :) He doesn't have the intelligence to be president (people thought Bush was dumb - McCain actually graduated in the bottom one percent of his class), and far more important, he doesn't have the temperament / character to be president. As much of a disaster as Obama has been, I remain completely unconvinced that McCain would have been any better.
DeleteFortunately, this year there are a number of candidates I am excited about (Walker, Paul, Cruz), and would support most of the rest (Bush, for example, but without any enthusiasm). The candidates I would refuse to vote for (Christie, to name one - an egomaniac bully who loves living high on taxpayer money, and who sort of reminds me of McCain), thankfully don't seem to have much chance of getting the nomination.
I have little doubt ISIS would 'still be gone' (note: islamic state was routed by the US and pretty much dismantled before we left... as all its leaders like zarqawi etc kept winding up under 500lbs bombs).
DeleteIt didn't take Obama's naivety or stupidity for us to lose Iraq to Iran and encourage ISIS, it took a deliberate step from him to punish his own country for the invasion of Iraq.
I'm pretty certain at this point that he withdrew forces because he wanted to make sure we 'learned the lesson' that nothing good can come out of US military action. It's a basic theme of progressivist propaganda and he's played it well.
- reader #1482
They come runnin' just as fast as they can
ReplyDeleteCause every real Americans crazy 'bout a sharp tongued man
By the time he gets them in the debate ring
His volleys wont be missin' a single thing
We all know he only fights for America to win
When he calls 'em out, he's gonna do 'em in
Y'all are simply gonna have to do your own research simply because though I'll be going some distance "I a'int "going that far" - I did serve aboard carriers but neither the Forrestal nor the Oriskany.
ReplyDeleteThere is a YouTube available detailing the *Findings Investigation* of what happened that 29 JUNE 67 on the deck of the ship. At the time pilots could (and often did) perform what were known as "wet-starts" - very soon thereafter made impossible by installing stuff for engine starts initiated by the pilots. Not a particularly intelligent (in hindsight) thing to do but carrier pilots "liked to play jokes on their fellow pilots."
Very Important not to overlook studying the Forrestal fire - there were numerous *faulty decisions* the fatal one using WWII era 500 pounder drop bombs. Very unstable things to have under the wings of jet powered aircraft such as A-4s.
But what made possible the cook-off of a 500 in the first place was about a minute beforehand a pilot sitting in an A-4 did a wet-start --- what happened with wet-starts was a flame shot out the exhaust of the engine so started, out to .. and depending on wind on the top, speed, direction, other variables .. anyway the flame could reach out in excess of 60 feet - and things are very crowded on the flightdeck of a carrier set in attack mode.
The flame which shot out the rear of the wet-started A-4 cooked-off a Zuni missile racked on a pylon of another A-4 set just aft of the unspecified A-4 pilot. That set off Zuni arced across the deck and hit another A-4 loaded with the aforementioned WWII era 500 pound dumb bombs and all hell broke loose.134 sailors were soon dead.
The hotshot who set it all into motion has NEVER been officially identified. Important to keep that in mind.
The USS Forrestal fortunately was not the sole aircraft carrier on Yankee Station that day however, fortunately the Oriskany was near enough whatever planes were already aloft either landed aboard her or at Da Nang.
________________
http://www.pythiapress.com/wartales/McCain-Shootdown.htm
Anonymous, the article you link makes no mention of a wet start. The Wikipedia article on the Forrestal fire is sufficiently detailed and sourced to make it clear that the Zuni rocket lit off due to electrical problems, not exposure to jet blast. Further, the Wikipedia article contains a diagram of aircraft positions and orientation at the start of the incident that shows all the jet exhausts pointing overboard, none towards another aircraft. Further, McCains aircraft was adjacent to the aircraft hit by the Zuni rocket. Your post seems to be a total fable.
Deletehttp://navyvets.com/group/ussforrestalcv59
Deletehttp://combatace.com/topic/50000-the-wet-start-incident/
____________
Boats crewmen nowadays allowed to use *Wiki* for training?
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/09/mccains-plane-crashes/
DeleteArkie
But. And only and merely in the spirit of just plain old FUN. .. HUMOR.
Deletehttp://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/mccain_angry.jpg
Arkie
Sorry for the off-topic comment:
ReplyDeleteIf you make secret side deals, why tell people you have done so?
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/248856-white-house-acknowledges-side-deals-between-iran-iaea
I think the IAEA spilled the beans on that item.
DeleteNot for naught, but I read an interesting piece somewhere earlier in the evening. The gist was something like this: Had McCain taken the early release from the Hanoi Hilton, that would have effectively been the end of John McCain's story. He would have faded into obscurity. It also would have put his father, the Admiral, in a bit of a predicament, his son abandoning the other POWs, etc. In essence, John McCain had little choice but to continue on as a guest of Ho Chi Minh.
ReplyDeleteNow, as far as Trump. The MSM has taken his comments way out of context, but would we really expect anything less from them? There is no question that Trump is a bloviating, bad wig wearing, horse's tuchus. But at the moment, he's spotlighting the problems that your average American is interested in/concerned about. Hence Trump's position in the polls. Now, assuming that Trump is in this for the right reasons, there are a lot worse things that could happen to the US. Chris Christie? Billary Clintoon?
Just my $0.02
"But McCain knew that Air Force Colonel Ted Guy was his senior ranking officer during the time he spent at a prison camp called the Plantation. Guy was such a stickler for discipline that he brought charges against several POWs after the war for collaborating with enemy. (The charges were later dropped.) Guy stood firmly against anyone taking an early release—except for one person, as he later stated in a book about POWs called Survivors."
Delete“I felt that no one should go home regardless of date of rank or how long held,” Colonel Guy said. “There was one man at this time who I thought was sick enough to accept release—John McCain, Admiral McCain’s son; he was badly wounded.”
"McCain did not ask Guy for permission to accept an early release, and may not have been aware of his SRO’s attitude. But the point was that, under the military system, Air Force Colonel Guy had the authority to decide whether Navy Lieutenant Commander McCain could accept an early release—not McCain himself. So McCain’s personal struggle over the decision, which he described with such emotional detail in his book, was irrelevant to the true situation, unless he had chosen to violate regulations and put himself at risk for future censure."
I don't give a tinker's damn about either of them. McCain is the worst kind of Rino and Trump is a carney, whose 15 minutes is about to expire. My only fear is the billion-dollar-baby's ego repeats the same transgression of another BDB named Ross Perot. It would be a fatally ironic for Trump to run as an independent with the outcome being another Clinton installed in the Whitehouse.
ReplyDeleteRoy
http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/is-donald-trump-the-new-ross-perot-or-the-next-pat-buchanan/
DeleteAnon July 23, 2015 at 10:31 PM
ReplyDeleteSee Above also Anonymous July 21, 2015 at 6:28 AM
Crystal Ball post date - July 16th.
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Makes me wonder if truly & actually, Anybody really paying attention?
Arkie
Just adding - and either forgive me others & Diplomad - this early, as somebody mentioned above (July 21 at 6:28) this is merely
Delete"Silly Season"
Just wait until the Campaigns begin the Media Bombardment just after the Before School Shopping Commercials and the "Black Thursday" when truly, #BlackLivesMatter ... except nobody'll be mentioning the obese big-titted ffemales nor the skinny fast-males which'll start the "mini-riot-season" ... then come Wal-Mart & ButterBall then of course Santa Claus after which
Santa Claus becomes Santa Clause for Real!
& Then the Campaigns TV Commercials Begin in Earnest.
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Remembering Diplomad Sir *this particular post* I'm not certain you'll want to. Not because your writing creation was so poor but ... for *other* reasons.
My guess is - this will not be one of those proclaiming 'I predicted this' here and that there.
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I know I wouldn't want to get sued getting flat-smeared along with a Wal-Mart Greeter - not so much that the two of us would be of course "Heroes" ... just that how the Obama DoD might proscribe the inscribe on our foot-marker.
My Dad's for instance:
WWII
Korea
Viet Nam
___________
I'd be dead of course but I wouldn't want my kids visiting my grave listing:
Viet Nam
*KA/EA6B*
Wal-Mart Fat Lady Stampede of 2015.
But heck .. with the exception of one of my glorious kids I wouldn't mind any of the rest of 'em calling up Ash Carter, "Look you McCain Wannabe Who'll Never Fix VA Anyway ..
My Dad was killed in the Great Fat Lady Stampede!
Arkie
I still don't understand how a POW can refuse being released, if the Viet Comms wanted to let someone go, they would. The POW has any say in that how?:
ReplyDeleteNot that complicated... the VC would simply ask him.
DeleteI don't see how that's confusing.
I'm sure the VC had their reasons.
- reader #1482
Back to Trump, I like businessmen who don't employ government stooges to steal private homes that sit on land they covet.
ReplyDelete