NSA leaker Snowden is creepy and a traitor.
One thing is to be concerned about the scope of NSA programs and their domestic impact, and quite another to reveal US and UK collection efforts overseas. From press reports it seems Snowden has provided the Chinese specific information about US efforts against Chinese targets, has revealed UK collection efforts at international conferences, and discussed details of the US/UK intel sharing arrangement. The British would be right in questioning the "special relationship" that exists between their intel agencies and ours; it seems their info is not safe with us.
These actions by Snowden are outrageous. It all makes one wonder what sort of people we have working in our security agencies and points out again the poverty of our vetting procedures for those employees.
He is a traitor. Heads should roll at NSA, Booz Allen, and anywhere else with responsibility for the vetting of Snowden.
The government is not the nation. The people are. If the two are in conflict, the government is wrong. If the government breaks the law as a matter if policy, it is not legitimate.
ReplyDeleteYou are on the wrong side. If you want to insist on throwing the word "treason" around, start closer to home.
If you want us to trust the government, you'll have to wait for it to earn that trust. Right now, it's like an employee who's been caught with his hand in the till. Trust is impossible. Utterly out of the question.
agreed
DeleteAgreed. No one expected the NSA would be collecting all telephone records of all Americans so they can see what they might find. No one expected that email and conversations would be captured. No one expect bank records would be collected. No one expected that 25 states would share their drivers license data bases for facial recognition searched.
DeleteIf you liked 1984, you will like this. But, many of us, including me, think the treason is not from Snowdin. It is from the NSA. In 50 years, this country has gone from the land of the free to the land of the watched.
BTW, check out how they used data matching to find Patricia Broadwell's affair with Patraeus. The found that just around the time of Benghazi and, funny, Patraeus did not object to the story of the Internet movie being responsible for Benghazi. I wonder how that came about??? We are government by thugs and we should let them get away with nothing.
Agreed, and with Rick Caird below, too. I lost government trust beginning in 2008, was certain of the wrongness of hussein, and more, and believed in the voter fraud, even worse in '12, that "elected" the pretender, a complete failure.
DeleteThere is much we don't know, not public, that we all should know, not the least the sealed records. But that is a good start, all of them. Too many truths not open with this one, worst of all.
Some hated various POTUS's as schemers, like LBJ, but this one is a giant team of schemers, against America and us. This is beyond scheming, and trust!
Jack
Walker and his friends are having trouble distinguishing between whistle-blowing and giving aid and comfort to the enemy. What Snowden did was the latter, compounded with a great deal of narcissism or perhaps paranoia.
DeleteHang him high or lock him in a mental institution, depending on motivation.
Interesting thoughts. So many scandals, where to start? I will say that the rate the scandals are dropping are mind boggling and give pause. One can hardly start to engage in conversation about one before another one, of greater dimension drops another incendiary bomb. It seems that this summer we will have one crashing down upon the other.
ReplyDeleteI have known since 1984 that the gov't listened to every phone call we made or spoke on. The difference to me is that the enemies list in the WH has changed placing targets upon American citizens, ignoring terrorists living among us.....no one can explain the Boston bombings by any other measure.
Snowden a traitor? Or double agent? Or triple agent? Only God knows I reckon.
Meanwhile, I got up and enjoyed a great cup of coffee, let the chickens out, watched radar for thunderstorms today and made delightful cinnamon toast for grandkids visiting...paused to thank God our son down range was ABLE to call his daddy and wish him a Happy Father's day.........life is simple here and I love that.
America as we know it...seems gone in the overall picture...but life here...I thank God for this day and pray for my country still.....
ETR
God is still in control but I wonder what is next.
true, true, true - and if an immigration bill like the one in the senate passes, then the usa will disappear FAIAP and become a 3rd world nation with no cultural connection to our great libertarian heritage.
Deletethe last 250 years will one day seem like a mythical era - like camelot...
sigh...
Unfortunately, the freedom we had in the 50's and 60's is long gone.
Deletesnowden did not act alone.
ReplyDeletethe prism leak was dine so he could claim political asylum and fight extradition.
the other leaks were to prove his bona fides to china and russia and gain him access to people who will pay him and his co-conspirators - some of whom may still be at the nsa or booz allen, or recently retired - many millions for the real trove of secrets they stole.
he is no libertarian and no whistle-blower: no libertarian whistle-blower would leave the usa for china.
Dip:
ReplyDeleteYou have reached the same conclusion I did: what the government is doing digging into our electronic talus is scarey and of questionable constitutionality, but what Snowden did is treasonous and a violation of the oath he took upon employment. I am far less troubled by the fact that he spilled the beans on the program than I am that he fled to the Chinese, who, on their own, have been putting numerous American government and private institutions under cyber attack. The NSA's violation of our privacy does not make Snowden less of a traitor, but it does confuse the issue so people like Michael Savage can call him a hero.
Snowden is no hero, and assassinating him (as he supposes will happen) will only make him a martyr. He should have his day in court and be shown for the shallow turncoat he is. It would make for fascinating theater watching the Holder DOJ flip-flopping on what he represents in the new America they envision.
When people are calling your suspicions crazy, labeling you a conspiracy crackpot, tinfoil hat, and nut job, and someone credible stands up and says "They're not crazy. It is happening, and here's proof." Your first impression of the guy is very likely to be favorable. Time will tell.
ReplyDeleteI've been through the vetting process that allows one to have access to the kinds of secrets Snowden had, not once but a half-dozen times. I was an imagery analyst for the Air Force for 26 years, with a Top Secret clearance. I worked at the Washington Navy Yard for a year, with all that implies. I would NEVER disclose the secrets I was entrusted with, either blatantly, as Snowden has done, or even inadvertently. I've been retired for 22 years now, and I still don't talk much about what I did in my military career, other than to tell folks I got paid to look at pictures. Snowden is a traitor, someone who has deliberately caused grave damage to the United States and its intelligence community. He and Bradley Manning should be welded into a 6'x6'x6' steel box, fed through a slot, and hosed down occasionally to get rid of the filth. To all my friends that still work within the community, you have my deepest sympathies for the pain this jerk has inflicted upon you, your agency, and the nation.
ReplyDeleteAs a frequent visitor to the old NPIC, I agree 100% with you. Regardless of what one might think of Obama and the federal government, Snowden is a traitor and, in effect, a Chinese spy. Those who defend him should think about that and the damage he has done to us and our allies.
DeleteAs a former NRO employee, I agree 100%. That said, I think the intel community should be cut in half. WAY to many Beltway bandits feeding at the trough.
DeleteLive long enough and nothing that is done in government surprises.
ReplyDeleteSnowden at best is a typical sanctimonious lefty thinking only he has all the answers. At worst he is a Chinese agent going home, probably because he made a mistake and realized his cover was blown or soon would be. We've seen it before, people on the left betraying friends, family and citizens in the name of a higher calling. If nothing else is learned from this sad repeat, its that all of the data our government has captured about all Americans is inherently unsafe and is likely to get exposed over time to whoever is determined enough to get it. Organized crime, drug cartels and other governments. US citizens will be defenseless against the digital onslaught of these malevolent groups.
Thanks Barack.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden-whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/
ReplyDeleteinterview of previous whistleblowers on NSA. The link starts automatically with an advertisement, but I still found it very worthwhile.
[snip]
from a comment at feralcat on americanthinker
When a National Security Agency contractor revealed top-secret details this month on the government's collection of Americans' phone and Internet records, one select group of intelligence veterans breathed a sigh of relief.
Thomas Drake, William Binney and J. Kirk Wiebe belong to a select fraternity: the NSA officials who paved the way. For years, the three whistle-blowers had told anyone who would listen that the NSA collects huge swaths of communications data from U.S. citizens. They had spent decades in the top ranks of the agency, designing and managing the very data-collection systems they say have been turned
against Americans. When they became convinced that fundamental constitutional rights were being violated, they complained first to their superiors, then to federal investigators, congressional oversight committees and, finally, to the news media.
To the intelligence community [neo-Stasi on crack], the trio are villains who compromised what the government classifies as some of its most secret, crucial and successful initiatives. They have been investigated as criminals and forced to give up careers, reputations and friendships built over a lifetime.
Today, they feel vindicated.
Q: So Snowden did the right thing?
Binney: Yes, I think he did.
Q: You three wouldn't criticize him for going public from the start?
J. Kirk Wiebe: Correct.
Binney: In fact, I think he saw and read about what our experience was, and that was part of his decision-making.
Not only did they go through multiple and all the proper internal channels and they failed, but more than that, it was turned against them. ... The inspector general was the one who gave their names to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution under the Espionage Act. And they were all targets of a federal criminal investigation, and Tom ended up being prosecuted — and it was for blowing the whistle.
-------
the americanthinker article is also interesting.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/06/the_false_excuse_of_national_security.html
being a whistle blower re: Fast and Furious also turned out very badly for the whistle blowers. Meanwhile, DOJ gets contempt of congress and thumbs their nose.
JMB
I can find no excuse for going over to the Chinese.
Deletewhat would have been a better way for him to blow the whistle?
Deletejmb
I would also like to understand how he could have blown the whistle in a different way? I too see this Edward guy as a liberal goof ball, but I don't think he could have gotten the visibility any other way. Please help me change my mind, as I don't want to like the guy either, but am very scared of what potential the Feds have been allowed to build.
DeleteHe was apparently a Ron Paul fan. Why not whistleblow to him?
DeleteI admit to the possibility that there may be more to Snowden's disclosures than I am aware of... but, so far all I see is documentation that the government has been and continues to spy on friend and foe alike. Obama and the government at large has a knife at the throat of liberty, at my throat. Snowden commits the treasonous act of telling me there is a knife at my throat.
ReplyDeleteWho is worse, the one holding the knife to my throat or the one who spoke out of turn to tell me there is a knife at my throat? Which is the greater crime?
"A great deal" of this info has been open-sourced for quite awhile, true it came out in dribs and drabs but if one was paying attention (and knew where to look) much was out there.
ReplyDeleteAnd I do find myself wondering if I was the only one noticing "a pattern" where would-be, wannabes, would somehow seemingly outta the blue, in setting up his "network" frequently manage to have a few FBI guys along for the ride. The few exceptions, Carlos Bledsoe, Times Square, *Boston I can see how such would/might work (* though having the Russians report to "our guys" - no matter how fuzzy the details ...). Unless perhaps the following is accurate [h/t Malcolm]:
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/061213-659753-all-intrusive-obama-terror-dragnet-excludes-mosques.htm
As mentioned above - I too have the nagging feeling The Traitor "had company" - that was, a lotta stuff which should've been far more compartmentalized. On another of Diplomad's posts (another subject or I'd point it) I excerpted a CRS study detailing the problems of contractors in the 'Community' mix. I can't shake this nagging queasy feeling Traitor short-strawed.
Arkie
Yes, Snowden is a traitor. Not quite at the level of Walker or Ames, but still pretty serious.
ReplyDeleteThat said...
We still have to look at the secondary issue of the Constitutionality of the NSA collecting this data to begin with. In view of the recent IRS scandal of targeting citizens based on their political beliefs, I can not see trusting the Government (nor the individual bureaucracies or bureaucrats who have their own bias and agendas) with this level of information.
I recall the way Obama got a judge to release the sealed divorce records of his opponent (despite the protests of each party of the divorce) to force them out of the Senate race. We see the IRS transferring confidential taxpayer information to politically motivated groups who then used that data to target high-profile donors.
While many on the Left find ways to ignore or justify the IRS actions, they refuse to ask themselves what would their reaction be if this was a Republican/Conservative Administration that was doing this to Progressive/Liberal groups?
Schumer needs to ask himself if he would be bothered with the NSA leaking the phone records of his donors to the NRA?
Snowden is the sideshow. We need to refocus the conversation on the abuses of our Government and the Administrations stone-walling of any investigation or action to end the abuse and prosecute those responsible.
Recently declassified (if heavily redacted) page 16 of this audit reports 375 unauthorized disclosure cases open. As I mention above, I too worry Snowden "may be" somewhat of a sideshow.
Deletehttp://www.fas.org/irp/dni/icig/sar-0612.pdf
Arkie
I agree with Mr. Mad that Snowden is a traitor, and I remain certain that he is at least now already in Chinese employ. I further agree with Mr. Mad that if Snowden was a "libertarian patriot", he had no business going over to the Chinese, whose regime is the last, best hope for 20th century totalitarianism and fights very hard against its domestic enemies to make sure it stays that way.
ReplyDeleteAnd, I also have had a top secret clearance. However, I also kept the secrets with which I was entrusted, and deeply respect Old Patriot's remarks.
However, I'm also deeply disturbed at the extent of USG spying on Americans, ignoring the mosques of our land (which have launched too many Awlakis and Tsarnaevs), and seems incapable of truly keeping secrets save for the academic record of America's supposedly "most brilliant president ever".
Statists, both within and without of the government, have labored long and hard to craft the narrative that terrorism is a grave threat to the security of the republic, and that in consequence, the people should not protest as government vastly expands its powers far beyond the traditional constitutional boundaries which once circumscribed its power.
ReplyDeleteTerrorism – more properly fourth-generation conflict (terrorism is one method of of waging 4GW) – is analogous to a virus which rapidly evolves to evade whatever defenses mounted by the host, always staying one step ahead of the immune system. At best, such a contagion can be controlled – but not eliminated.
The government is incapable of preventing terrorism or assuring the population of absolute safety; yet the fiction that these things can be accomplished is allowed to persist because it is good for the business of government, which is first and foremost assuring the survival and prosperity of the permanent bureaucracy. Granting agencies such as the NSA virtually unlimited power to wage the “war on terrorism” only assures that our remaining liberties will be further reduced in the name of an illusory safety and security.
There is a final question that the supporters of the NSA and other secret agencies have yet to answer satisfactorily, namely – who watches the watchers? In theory, the vast and secretive NSA (dubbed “No Such Agency” by some wags inside the beltway), CIA, DIA, and other such agencies are supposed to be subject to oversight from the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, as well as from appointed officials within the executive and judicial branches, as well as members of the federal national security, law enforcement and intelligence/counter-intelligence bureaucracies, but in practice, such oversight is nil. National security statutes have become so overused and draconian that very few people have access to the complete picture of what these agencies do. Those that do have access are insiders, and thus generally do not make themselves accountable to the electorate. Thus, the question stands – who watches the watchers?
If there were justice in the world, Snowden would be living it up in the White House and Obama would be in hiding. The NSA is nothing but a son of Stasi.
ReplyDeleteAs Barry Goldwater said about "the end justifies the means" (and it's not even like all this totalitarian NSA Stasi/IRS Gestapo crap is even making us any safer) - if ever there was a philosophy of government totally at war with that of the Founding Fathers and their Constitution and Bill of Rights, it is this one.
ReplyDelete"NSA leaker Snowden is creepy and a traitor. "
ReplyDeleteLet me remind you - this is no trial and you are no judge.
Let me remind you that this is a blog of opinion and that is my opinion.
DeleteWhich seems to be the same as that of the Queen of Hearts.
DeleteThe NSA is an anti-American abomination. The Founding Fathers would say - why did we even bother - we should have stuck with King George.
ReplyDeleteWell, we wouldn't want to be able to track what our enemies are doing or thinking, would we? Some people have a rather over-inflated idea of what the NSA is (or is not). I've been seeing that since high school.
DeleteSnowden is a traitor. Whistleblowers don't run to the Chinese and then start blowing foreign intelligence programs that have nothing to do with what was supposedly getting Snowden all hot and bothered.
Good grief, just read about the guy--I wouldn't have given him a job, let alone a clearance.
Signals Intelligence was arguably one of, if not the greatest, weapon of WW2 (nukes were nice, but played no role in Europe). Do you think it was an "abomination" that our gentlemen read other gentlemen's mail? Were Enigma and Purple a violation of some sort of ethical or legal norm?
DeleteAn argument can be made for whistleblowing on domestic spying, one I might agree with. But providing non-friendly powers detailed information about overseas intelligence collection is betrayal, plain and simple. Snowden is a traitor and should pay the price for it.
I was once in the community and regular people would be surprised how easy it is (was) to obtain clearances. Of course it depended upon the type of clearance etc.. Mr. Snowden is a case that is very puzzling. A traitor probably, treason not so sure given the laws. Violation of espionage acts definitely, convicted by his own words and actions. An employee of the Chinese unknown, but if he is Mr. Snowden will them harsh taskmasters and their coin a bitter payment.
ReplyDeletePerhaps we should consider a list of concerns that a recovered USG will have to address:
ReplyDelete1. How much surveillance is necessary for the safety of the people?
2. How do we uphold protections against unwarranted searches and seizures?
3. What alternatives do we have to the surveillance state, and how do we make them work?
I am a firm believer in both responsible law enforcement and national defense, yet agree with many that the surveillance state doesn't seem to be working when it comes to keeping us safe. Further, having seen the aftermath of the Cambodian wars on the Thai-Cambodian border and having served in Guangzhou, China, I cannot hold any illusions about the totalitarian vision.
We need to be thinking of ways that our defense and intelligence communities recover the vision that their job is to defend not only the physical safety but also the liberties of the people.
Kepha:
DeleteUntil high placed people start going to jail for serious lengths of time the Intel leaks, IRS abuse, and overall political abuse of government agencies will continue. Other than that perhaps wholesale dissolution maybe the only answer.
Until high placed people start going to jail for serious lengths of time ...
DeleteJames:
I frankly do not see that happening in our lifetimes. (Bearing in mind "a lot" of our current CongressCritters were the very ones who emplaced in the "legal" framework - ExtraConstitutional as rendering their oaths to Protect and Defend such minor stuff as the Fourth Amendment & by extension perhaps even the Fifth Amendment - very likely are).
Duke Cunningham and some few others aside - what you're suggesting would involve necessarily SCOTUS. (As in for instance, Justice Taney taking on an old-timey version of an AG. [Dred Scott]).
But it seems to me, that'd be the longest of rows to hoe since, in our modern American World - the FISC is only subject to review by the FISC itself - "Secret Acts" by Congress dealing with "Secret Issues" having to do with "Secret Programs" with in-built non-disclosure pacts - that would necessitate a flood of Snowdens.
"Bi-Partisanship" we constantly hear, "Is dead, dead, dead."
But now we see that isn't quite true. Feinstein will lay down with Rogers. Graham with Obama. I guess there's something to that, "The Lions will lay down with the Lambs" after all.
Anonymous:
DeleteYou are quite right. All three branches are corrupted when it comes to this matter. This is why I'm saying that dissolution of agencies maybe the only answer. Dissolution brings it's own set of problems (how do effectively protect ourselves from foreign threats, etc.). Agencies (and Cabinet Depts) were set up ideally relatively politically free, administered by the Executive, with Congressional oversight, and Judicial review. That is all gone now (whether one party or another is to blame and the Dems come to mind, is really beside the point) and must be changed. How I'm at a loss.
For me, whether or not Snowden is a traitor is a secondary issue.
ReplyDeleteWe citizens should focus on the violation of our constitutional rights against unreasonable search and seizure. If our government has either a criminal or terrorist element on their radar they can go to a judge and get a warrant to seize their records. NOT EVER should they be allowed to troll through our phone, email, etc. records.
Let the government handle whether or not Snowden is a traitor; let the citizens decide if our government is a traitor to the constitution and liberty of this country.
In Snowden's case all that is undermined by his running to the Chinese and providing them information that has nothing to do with the violations of our Bill of Rights.
ReplyDeleteWell don't worry about the NSA worry about the DHS who wants in on this.
ReplyDeleteDHS takes over when TOR is used.
DeleteWe'd been fine if only NSA was doing this stuff - "not to worry American Citizens" - but then the largest expansion of USG (DHS) comes along - and here we are.
We heard today "nobody's listening in" - which is all fine and good - but then I suppose, nobody even wiki'd the term (or Googled) "Quantico Circuit"?
It's not like this stuff wasn't "out there" - heck, we've been tapping since Alexander Graham Bell.
Google - or your preferred Search:
Quantico Circuit
There seems to be a couple of viewpoints here. Those who have been in the “community” and had clearances and those who have not, I was slightly in the “community” and worked as an IT contractor years ago for DoD, in much the same capacity as I expect Mr. Snowden did. I saw many things above my clearance level, as this is the nature of IT services. Not everything is scrubbed for your clearance when you have to work on things. I took my oath God Damn seriously. My oath overrules everything. I would never betray my oath. This is what sickens me about Snowden. He wants to play God.
ReplyDeleteIf I ever came into contact with material that bothered me so much that I felt the need to do something about it. There are channels within the organization to report such things to. This was all briefed to me as part of my in processing into the position. Perhaps Snowden did use these channels, and was rebuffed. It is known that there was congress oversight of the program. Perhaps he planned to just scrap as much dirt as he could and then hatch his plot, as he only worked for Booz-Allen-Hamilton for a few months.
As Diplomad has noted, Snowden fled the country. Unlike the Pentagon papers guy. Who is also a traitor, but at least he had the balls to face the music.
Salvorhardin:
Delete"As Diplomad has noted, Snowden fled the country. Unlike the Pentagon papers guy. Who is also a traitor, but at least he had the balls to face the music." I agree. If you feel your conscience demands that you must reveal something and all normal recourse is closed then, you do it as an American citizen here in public and let the issue be tried out. That being said you have still broken oaths and laws and must be willing to take the consequences or your claim to conscience has no virtue, period.
You're naive. The channels are not just useless, they are malignant.
DeleteBut I guess all the "treasonous Snowden" folks really don't want the American people to know enough about their own secrecy/security government to oversee it as the Constitution expects.
What sort of release of classified info would you people not regard as treason? Do you think the classification system is some sort of religious sanctification?
So he broke the law. Everything Hitler did was legal under German law, and revealing classified information about the Nazi death camps would doubtless have been regarded as treason. And yes, that is exactly where your line of reasoning is taking you.
From 2008.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/03/whistleblower-f/
I'm weirded out by all those who were "willfully ignorant" - as [the fictional Mulder insisted] "The answer is out there."
Here's the "first" (I'm pretty sure the actual first) mention of what I know to be the case:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/files/Affidavit-BP-Final.pdf
That everybody is "just now" er, coming to the realization astounds me.
Arkie
Some might find this apropos. Today is the anniversary, the 798th as it happens, of the signing of the Magna Carta:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.annaraccoon.com/politics/the-magna-carta-walking-in-king-johns-footsteps/
It's also Juneteenth, the day we celebrate the Emancipation of the slaves in Texas. AND, the fifteenth was the anniversary of the Peasant's Revolt of 1381, very significant to all of us who came later.
ReplyDeleteMichael Adams
Agree. Running to 'our partners in prosperity' chicoms invalidated snowden's sanctimony about freedom and "I don't want to live in a country that does this."
ReplyDeleteYeah. Right. So he runs like a scalded rat to that bastion of freedom, gun ownership, free speech, and tolerance, communist china.
Uh huh. Sure.
During the 80s, many citizens well understood and appreciated that NSA intercepted international calls and comms to narco-traffickers by using computer power to look for key words related to that toxic 'industry'.
Good. Dopelord scumbags cost us money, liberty, and lives.
James Bamford's "Puzzle Palace' thirty years ago lawfully provided a good look at NSA and the many ways in which it protects the country.
Snowden gassed off piously about NSA this, NSA that, but he curiously omitted much mention of the regime who is seen as misusing NSA and anything else it can get its chicongo communist MOB claws into.
Most people couldn't care less about NSA. They do care about the chicongo Marxist MOB. Some wonder if we're not being played yet again here to get our minds off such trivial issues as Benghazi.
A client who became a good friend began their career with ASA in Viet Nam, then worked for NAVSECGRU before retiring from a civilian federal agency credited with busting more drug smuggling ships and aircraft albeit from monitoring sites stateside. Military and other agencies credited my friend's work with nailing these druggie rats, and please don't tell me about all the poor people unjustly in the joint for recreational drug use.
Here's the Juice: don't want to go to prison for recreational drugs? Find another form of recreation, one which doesn't enrich the enemies of humanity and this nation who supply poison to the naive.
Snowden speaks in dire terms of NSA, but seems untroubled by the chicongo - a reference to the genocidal Belgian congo tainted by the soviets, spare me the 'racism' silliness - communist MOB.
Yeah, not nice to listen to domestic phone calls of innocent people. Agree. But it's doubtful that's the case, yet another overblown claim on part of the Left.
This seems about handing yet more secrets to the chicoms and other international termites, perhaps with a wink and a nod on part of the regime.
It also seems an effort to cynically game things by getting our minds off Benghazi.
Benghazi. You know, that TV show, the 60s, starred Vince Edwards...
Paul Vincent Zecchino
Manasoviet Key, Florida
19 June, 2013
I dunno, but the implication of PRISM causes disquiet-and disturbs. The implication is serious, because like most things, misuse can occur, depending upon trust, in a proven deeply untrustworthy regime, reminding of The King of England parallel. See Paul Revere, in a new way, revealed here: http://kottke.org/13/06/prism-in-the-18th-century
ReplyDeleteHere one can explore some unusual and thoughtful other real world details of Freedom and treason and in some depth, not yet explored here I think, from a down east forum of conservatives, of different specialties, worthy of a read here: http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/archives/22374-Is-Privacy-the-Issue-With-the-NSA.html
Jack
Why shouldn’t government spy on us all twenty four hours a day three hundred and sixty five days year for life?
ReplyDeleteSo what, you ask?
Because reading this makes you a suspicious person.
Because in this internet age government can control every aspect of your life and can destroy you in a heartbeat with a few keystrokes if it wishes.
Because even the most innocuous and innocent activities can be taken out of context or viewed as suspicious and bring government down on you.
Because you’re no longer free to express yourself for fear of bringing yourself to government’s attention. Can criticizing government or speaking out against the government line bring government down on you? You bet it can. Will it? You bet it will.
Because you may think you have nothing to hide but government may think differently and ruin your life because it does.
Because your freedom of association is also taken away…if government doesn’t like who you’re associating with or views people you associate with as suspicious, even if they’re relatives or even if you know nothing about why government sees them as suspicious in the first place, that makes you suspicious as well.
Because government being government it won’t stop with spying on you and documenting everything about you, with keeping its eyes and ears on you twenty four hours a day three hundred and sixty five days a year for life. Taking away freedom of movement could very well be next and after that taking away other freedoms you take for granted as well. Will that happen if it gets away with this constant spying on you? Yes it will. Absolutely it will.
Because if government doesn’t like what you read or how you think or disapproves of your political activities or anything else about you it can intrude on your life and force you to act as it wants you to…because government can smear you and ruin you and throw you in jail if it doesn’t like you. You don’t think government will use the information it gathers about you against you, will use it to keep you in line? Think again. Of course it will.
Because that old canard about having nothing to fear if you’re innocent and have nothing to hide is simply untrue. Virtually anything can be misconstrued or seen as suspicious and innocent people get hurt all the time by government. In fact, the bigger the government program the more innocent people get hurt and mass spying is one of the biggest government programs there is.
Because there are much better ways to prevent terrorism and foil terrorists than trampling on our civil liberties and spying on us all twenty four hours a day three hundred and sixty five days a year for life. Israel has arguably been more successful than any other country in foiling terrorists and preventing terrorist attacks and it doesn’t spy on its population like that.
Because government spying on us all twenty four hours a day three hundred and sixty five days a year for life will lead to mass conformity and allow government to dictate every aspect of our lives according to its wishes.
Because government spying on us all twenty four hours a day three hundred and sixty five days a year for life will lead to millions of scapegoats, one of whom could be you. Or me. Or anyone.
Because malice and prejudice and ignorance will enter into it.
Because government spying on us all twenty four hours a day twenty four hours a day three hundred and sixty five days a year for life makes a mockery of everything the United States of America stands for and has always stood for and is about as anti-American as you can get.
Because being spied on by government twenty four hours a day three hundred and sixty five days a year for life means you’re no longer free and are at the mercy of government.
So what?
That’s what.
Now bring this obscenity to an end and save your freedom and your country.
While it is still possible.
Pertinent, and valid, true comments. Much of which concerns me with every comment I make online, or anywhere, and likewise every blogger and commentator, should consider well the potential risks mentioned by anon, and be wary, in America!
DeletePerhaps every person that speaks or writes, should consider. With an untrustworthy regime, such as is this one, such comments as yours, anon, are fundamental, as portended, forecast, by the Founding Fathers, who had seen it before, themselves. Thus the Constitutional protections written, thus the Declaration pledge dedication "...with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor." which needs intelligent determined people to enforce, to maintain through the ages.
History is replete with examples of tyranny of dictators, religions, and philosophies. Was there a real exclamation for revenge from Valerie Jarrett? No one claims it with attribution, from 2009, but a story is here: http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/is-this-what-obama-meant-by-revenge/
And all the so far developed evidence shows what is up, so far, trust wise. What is next? Like hussein said in his recent speech, "If you can't trust government,...then we're gonna have some problems here!" Dripping with an implied invective requiring an answer of "Yassa massa, yassa" ilk. What a farce! Among the many things he's demonstrated is that he is no statesman, no commanding leader!
Jack
As I was saying, above, here is this, there are two of us at least, with examples of distrust. I had learned of sigint for certain foreign conversations, through a friend who had a high profile political friend in a friendly Asian ally country, back in mid '90s. (And of course knew of this principle in WW2 and in all wars in history, the use of signals, codes, and intercepts.) As time passed, from web sources and friends, learned of increasing monitoring of both domestic and foreign conversations, increasing details in recent years, including from such as the wired 2008 article. I wasn’t so disquieted until it was made raw, by Snowden. I had been years aware of key trigger words, and all e sigint, but all Snowden did was make it "in your face", to me. I had been long aware, that with big brother on the lines and emails, it was back to the long ago party lines, as I had lived on my briefcase first cell phone, and short wave conversations, before. Of course, the unfolding background and behavior of the infiltrators and pretenders of the current regime, unprincipled in the ways of the Founders, really speaks to the unprincipled dangers posed to our Freedoms, all of them, and for me and many, is the exclamation mark on the following article.
DeleteI still am not sure, not certain, what else Snowden actually did that may qualify as treason, that is an issue that indeed has to be addressed, yet. All I’m sure of is he revealed in an upfront and personal, more threatening way what I at least already knew, and suspected more, on top of our earlier discovery of proof of the IRS behavior, which is itself inexcusable and criminal. Ditto what I suspect happened and what I/we know what happened in Benghazi, and more. So I’m waiting for more believable information about what Snowden actually did.
Meantime, the following describes where I think we are in America now, in a bit more detail than my above entry.
Living in Fear: Welcome to Fascist America
http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2013/06/19/living-in-fear-welcome-to-fascist-america/
Jack
A short tutorial on one of several very effective and unquestionalble legitimate use of predictive data mining against somali terrorist muslims (PARS), and other examples, lessons of predictive data mining. See it here: http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htiw/articles/20130617.aspx
ReplyDeleteQuite informative, thought provoking, and to paraphrase a Forbes mag. quote on the back page, "With all thy getting, get understanding (Proverbs)"
Jack
Gen. Keith B. Alexander, Chief of the NSA, is creepy and a traitor. He had swore an oath to uphold and defend the United States Constitution, but when he testified before Congress on June 18, Gen. Alexander shredded the Constitution and then lied to the U.S. Congress and the public about it.
ReplyDeleteIf there were justice in the word, Snowden would be made the head of the NSA with the task of dismantling it as the East Germans were able to dismantle their counterpart to it, the Stasi, Gen. Keith B. Alexander would be in Leavenworth at hard labor for life and Barack Hussein Obama would be in hiding somewhere in Kenya.
Personally I think the entire NSA 'leaking' is simply to provide cover for his turning over national security information to our enemies. He isn't a 'hero' IMHO but a traitor.
ReplyDeleteI was reading the World Daily News (世界日报）for June 18 and saw a lively exchange of opinions on whether China would or would not grant Snowden asylum. One writer opined that China had too much to lose in Sino-American relations; another expressed a kind of Schadenfreude that after so many Chinese had sought asylum in the USA due to Mainland China's lack of liberty, here, apparently, was an American seeking Chinese asylum to escape an overly prying "Big Brother" state.
ReplyDeleteWhile we're at it, World Daily News, which is read widely in Sino-American communities, is owned and run by the Guomindang (Kuomintang).
Judging by the recent spate of scandals, the enemy to whom Snowden adhered and comforted was the people of the United States.
ReplyDeleteMore info coming out regarding the NSA snooping... Anyone believe we would know about the gross abuse of power if the 'traitor' had taken his concerns up the chain of command?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/20/fisa-court-nsa-without-warrant